Something that I thought was very interesting was how the two men in these stories, Tanner and Old Dudley, both felt the need to be needed. One of the bigger examples of this is when Old Dudley in The Geranium remembered when he would go fishing, "He liked to come in at night with a long string of them and slap them down in the sink. 'Few fish I got,' he'd say. It took a man to get those fish, the old girls at the boarding house always said" (703). Now that he is living with his daughter in New York, all he is needed for is to get patterns from the woman downstairs and looking at the geranium. He needs a lot of help as well when he is trying to get around New York, and when he falls on the stairs. In Judgment Day, the story opens up with Tanner having been dressed by his daughter. I find it interesting that O'Connor wrote a story from the perspective of a couple men who still want to be needed, after we have read so many stories with "absent men" or men who are unsympathetic characters.
I think these two stories are also interesting to consider with what was talked about in class on Wednesday about the absent men in the stories we have been reading. Although the two men these stories were physically present in these stories and the stories were told from their perspectives, I feel that since they were not needed, they could fall under the category of "absent men."
Friday, September 26, 2008
The Geranium and Judgement Day: Transplantation from Rural to Urban Life
In both The Geranium and Judgement Day, the theme of transplantation from rural to urban life is pervasive. Moreover, both of these stories deal with elderly men from the south who are “forced” to live with daughters in the city. These men spend a great deal of time staring. The men stare most notably at things directly across the street from them, in neighboring apartment complexes. More importantly, these actions create discomfort in the people who live around these men. Consequently in The Geranium, the owner of the geranium pushes the geranium from the window and it shatters on the ground. The man in the window expresses his displeasure with Dudley for gazing at the flower every day. Similarly, in Judgement Day, the elderly man stares at the African-Americans whom have moved in next door and as a result, is pushed and injured by one of them.
Besides the theme of transplantation, we see a theme of race in both stories. In these stories the elderly white men treat African-Americans as something that can be possessed, and moreover, can be calculated. This manner of thinking ultimately ends up hurting the elderly men in these stories.
The notable difference in these two stories occurs in their endings. In Judgement Day, the final paragraph seems forced and unnecessary. The old man dies, but then, suddenly, the final paragraph is from the daughter’s perspective. That seems odd because we could almost entirely assume that she would bury her father in the city despite his wishes. In The Geranium, the ending is quite different and more fitting. The man tells Dudley not to invade his privacy, Dudley looks down and the shattered geranium, and the man warns him that he only tells people once. I think the biggest thing to think about between these stories is not their similarities, but rather, their differences.
Besides the theme of transplantation, we see a theme of race in both stories. In these stories the elderly white men treat African-Americans as something that can be possessed, and moreover, can be calculated. This manner of thinking ultimately ends up hurting the elderly men in these stories.
The notable difference in these two stories occurs in their endings. In Judgement Day, the final paragraph seems forced and unnecessary. The old man dies, but then, suddenly, the final paragraph is from the daughter’s perspective. That seems odd because we could almost entirely assume that she would bury her father in the city despite his wishes. In The Geranium, the ending is quite different and more fitting. The man tells Dudley not to invade his privacy, Dudley looks down and the shattered geranium, and the man warns him that he only tells people once. I think the biggest thing to think about between these stories is not their similarities, but rather, their differences.
Symbolism. Why only in "The Geranium"?
Yes, these stories are so similar that it's almost hard to distinguish them. After reading both of them I found myself preferring "The Geranium." I think I liked it better because Old Dudley was a more likable character than Tanner for me. He spends much of his time staring out the window at a geranium across the alley. The geranium, by this association, is a symbol for him. Having a flower as a symbol for him makes him a very delicate and weak character. As the reader, I felt sorry for him and almost slightly protective of him in this strange world where he feels so alienated. This weak personification of him continues when he gets lost in his own apartment building and has to be helped up the stairs by the black man that lives next door.
Even though the black man was perfectly nice to him and kindly helping him up the stairs and is even well groomed, Old Dudley is unable to get past his previous racist beliefs and see the black man as an equal. He is trapped in the beliefs that he was able to keep in the old South. The only problem is that he's not in the South anymore. He's in the North now and he would have to change his beliefs to grow. When he returns upstairs he cannot break away from his shallow beliefs. This is mirrored in the geranium falling from the window. It smashes on the ground where it is uprooted like Old Dudley is in New York. It is unable to grow anymore just like Old Dudley because he is unable to let go of his racism. Eventually it's going to die, just like Old Dudley will be unable to continue his happy life in New York.
So I think that the geranium symbolism is why I enjoyed "The Geranium" more than "Judgment Day." My question is, why did O'Connor include the geranium in "The Geranium" and not in "Judgment Day" when there were so many other similarities in the stories.
Even though the black man was perfectly nice to him and kindly helping him up the stairs and is even well groomed, Old Dudley is unable to get past his previous racist beliefs and see the black man as an equal. He is trapped in the beliefs that he was able to keep in the old South. The only problem is that he's not in the South anymore. He's in the North now and he would have to change his beliefs to grow. When he returns upstairs he cannot break away from his shallow beliefs. This is mirrored in the geranium falling from the window. It smashes on the ground where it is uprooted like Old Dudley is in New York. It is unable to grow anymore just like Old Dudley because he is unable to let go of his racism. Eventually it's going to die, just like Old Dudley will be unable to continue his happy life in New York.
So I think that the geranium symbolism is why I enjoyed "The Geranium" more than "Judgment Day." My question is, why did O'Connor include the geranium in "The Geranium" and not in "Judgment Day" when there were so many other similarities in the stories.
Stairs
I agree with all of the posts so far that have found the stories to be extremely similar. While I found the story topic interesting, once was probably enough.
That said, there is one particular aspect of the two stories that really struck me: the significance of the stairs.
In a very literal sense, the stairs are an impediment for both Tanner and Old Dudley, who are physically challenged by their age. Their sense of displacement and powerlessness is enhanced by the stairways that keep them prisoners in their daughters' high-rise apartments.
But more significantly, I think O'Connor utilizes the stairs another way. As an archetype, stairs represent transition or change, moving from one phase to another. On one hand, this can represent Tanner and Old Dudley's moves to New York from the South. But more significantly, I think the stairs represent the transition from one era to another culturally speaking.
Tanner and Old Dudley have lived with a particular world view of race. Not only is race viewed differently in New York, but the times themselves are changing. Tanner and Old Dudley can't believe they live in a time and place where African-Americans live next door to their white daughters. Both are ill-equipped to change with the times, and each attempt unsuccessfully to reconcile their circumstance with their outdated world view.
It's no accident that O'Connor brought both Tanner and Old Dudley to their moment of reckoning on the stairs. Neither could maintain their footing in this new world with their old ideas. Their attempts to do so led to costly falls.
"The Geranium" in particular makes great references to this:
"You better be careful," the negro said. "You could easily hurt yourself on these steps." (710)
The steps dropped down like a deep wound in the floor... He wouldn't go down and have niggers pattin' him on the back. (712)
That said, there is one particular aspect of the two stories that really struck me: the significance of the stairs.
In a very literal sense, the stairs are an impediment for both Tanner and Old Dudley, who are physically challenged by their age. Their sense of displacement and powerlessness is enhanced by the stairways that keep them prisoners in their daughters' high-rise apartments.
But more significantly, I think O'Connor utilizes the stairs another way. As an archetype, stairs represent transition or change, moving from one phase to another. On one hand, this can represent Tanner and Old Dudley's moves to New York from the South. But more significantly, I think the stairs represent the transition from one era to another culturally speaking.
Tanner and Old Dudley have lived with a particular world view of race. Not only is race viewed differently in New York, but the times themselves are changing. Tanner and Old Dudley can't believe they live in a time and place where African-Americans live next door to their white daughters. Both are ill-equipped to change with the times, and each attempt unsuccessfully to reconcile their circumstance with their outdated world view.
It's no accident that O'Connor brought both Tanner and Old Dudley to their moment of reckoning on the stairs. Neither could maintain their footing in this new world with their old ideas. Their attempts to do so led to costly falls.
"The Geranium" in particular makes great references to this:
"You better be careful," the negro said. "You could easily hurt yourself on these steps." (710)
The steps dropped down like a deep wound in the floor... He wouldn't go down and have niggers pattin' him on the back. (712)
Old Dudley, the Geranium
Old Dudley sees a lot of himself in the geranium, I think. He spends a lot of the story feeling vulnerable, starting with his daughter, who "made his eyes feel like his throat" (701). He lies in fear in his new surrounding, "always afraid that when he went out in the dog runs, a door would suddenly open and one of the snipe-nosed men that hung off the window ledges . . . would growl, "What are you doing here?" (708) It's a feeling of displacement, much like his take on the geranium. He condemns the owners, saying that "[t]hey set it out and let the hot sun bake it all day and they put it so near the ledge the wind could almost knock it over. They had no business with it" (701). Old Dudley feels like he could get by back home, as "[h]e had been doing all right. There was his pension that could feed him and odd jobs that kept him his room at the boarding house" (702). Old Dudley makes a similar judgment about the geranium, noting that "Lutisha could have taken [it] and stuck it in the ground and had something worth looking at in a few weeks" (701). Reminiscing on the south, Old Dudley finds an unlikely companion in the geranium, engaging in a pathetic fallacy to draw a distinct line between where he was and where he is now. Fuming, ailing, Old Dudley can't make heads or tails of this place, where "a damn nigger that patted him on the back and called him "old timer" lives next door to his daughter, and to have done that to Old Dudley, of all people - "[h]im that knew such as that couldn't be. Him that had come from a good place . . . A place where such as that couldn't be." (711) Old Dudley feels bizarrely exposed, covering his mouth when he "realize[s] that he had made a noise" in the hall (708). He strikes a figure so much like that of the geranium at the end of the story, "at the bottom of the alley with its roots in the air" (713), upside down, his frailties exposed, uprooted and wasting away besides. Old Dudley's failed attempt to retrieve the geranium becomes representative of his plight in the city. Despite his repetition of the sentiment that he "wouldn't be trapped[, h]e wouldn't be" (711), he is overcome by fear and pride and so won't descend the stairs to retrieve the geranium. "He wouldn't go down and have niggers pattin' him on the back." (712) Instead, he returns to the room to look at the geranium, farther away than it has ever been before, six stories below. It is in this way that O'Connor makes the geranium not only a sympathetic figure to Old Dudley, but in fact a representation of the South, a place that he is too afraid to return to on his own and so only distantly recalls, wistfully reflecting on that wasted opportunity.
I have perhaps too much of a crush on "Judgment Day" to analyze it at all right now, but it seems that glasses feature prominently in both stories. Old Dudley's memory of Lutisha's glasses, reflecting on his neighbor's own, on page 708, has parallels to the actor neighbor with horn-rims (688) and Tanner winning over Coleman with a pair of glasses (683). I'm at a loss as to how they function in these stories. Any ideas?
I have perhaps too much of a crush on "Judgment Day" to analyze it at all right now, but it seems that glasses feature prominently in both stories. Old Dudley's memory of Lutisha's glasses, reflecting on his neighbor's own, on page 708, has parallels to the actor neighbor with horn-rims (688) and Tanner winning over Coleman with a pair of glasses (683). I'm at a loss as to how they function in these stories. Any ideas?
Race Relations Differences Between the North and South
These stories both had similar plots and thematic devices and what I thought was most interesting about both of them was the way that neither protagonist could understand the way that blacks and whites interracted with each other in New York. Both of them had had incredibly close black friends in the south, but were unable to adapt to the way that people behave in a big city. Old Dudley and was extremely close to Rabie and had spent almost all of his free time with him in the south, but when he came to North and met a black person who was friendly with him but who behaved as if he believed they were equals he was upset that things weren't the way that he thought they should be. Tanner was also disturbed by the way that his black neighbor didn't respond to his desire to become fast friends. Tanner was dependant on his constant companion Coleman and couldn't deal with being rejected by a black man who he wanted to be friends with. It was interesting that while both of these men were racist and acted in a totally dominant manner towards their new black neighbors in the North, they both had depended on their relationships with blacks in the South.
Similarity
The similarities between the two stories is rather obvious. To old men from the south move up to New York to live with their daughters. The daughters in both stories seem to find it difficult to live with their fathers because they do not share the same view points, regarding black people, as their fathers do. In “Geranium” Old Dudley says “he didn’t know his own daughter that was raised proper would stay next door to them” to himself (O’Connor 707). Old Dudley, knowing not other way of life than the south way of life believes he raised his daughter “properly”; he believes he raised her to know that letting a black person live next you was simply wrong. Living in the north gives Old Dudley and Tanner a new point of view; they are now able to see how the other half, the north, lives. Both of these old men are shocked by what they see, which is a black person moving into an apartment that is just as nice as the ones they are visiting. They are amazed that these black neighbors are almost equals to their daughters.
Coming from the south is not the only reason why these old men do not accept the north’s way of life; Old Dudley and Tanner come from a different generation than their daughters, obviously. So, naturally this plays a role in how these men handle situations regarding black people. Even though they may have brought their daughters up believing in the same principle, the girls obviously more accepted of another race. Growing up in a different time period than their fathers and living in the north helped contribute to the girls’ understanding and knowledge of others.
Coming from the south is not the only reason why these old men do not accept the north’s way of life; Old Dudley and Tanner come from a different generation than their daughters, obviously. So, naturally this plays a role in how these men handle situations regarding black people. Even though they may have brought their daughters up believing in the same principle, the girls obviously more accepted of another race. Growing up in a different time period than their fathers and living in the north helped contribute to the girls’ understanding and knowledge of others.
Geraniums/Judgement Day
Looking up these stories online, I read that O'Connor intended Judgement Day (1965) as a direct rewrite of Geraniums (1947); she had already rewritten this story, and published the results, twice. I think it is fascinating that a writer could find so much interest in the same scenario over a period of years. Maybe she saw a depth in this character that could not be conveyed by a single expression.
Anyways, I think she succeeds in that both of these stories have distinct differences in tone and, to a certain extent, characterization. I feel Old Dudley is a bit more sympathetic than Tanner: though both men seem to consider black people to be their "pets", Tanner's quasi mastership of Coleman is more grotesquely inhuman, as shown in the reference to Coleman being "curled up...at the foot of Tanner's bed, a stinking skin full of bones, arranged in what seemed vaguely human form." (p. 679) Though Tanner is a poor squatter himself, he still dominates his black companion through some influence that isn't really shown. Tanner's relationship with Coleman hinges on his expectation that all black people should/will show white people deference, because if they do not he or someone else may punish them with impunity. In fact, that is why the two men initially meet: Coleman is sleeping near Tanner's job site one day, and Tanner, who attempts to run Coleman off, seems ready to violently hurt Coleman if he finds it necessary. At no point during this does Tanner seem worried about any personal consequences to his maiming/killing Coleman, because at that time in that place a white person could rarely be brought to justice for harming an African American.
I found Old Dudley more human (which I guess just means likable) because he seemed less vitriolic and just generally softer: his fixation with geraniums, his make-believe gun on the stairs, and his weeping, which ends the story. O'Connor shows both Tanner and Old Dudley crying, revealing the depth of their fragility and desperation, but her lingering on Dudley's weeping and the broken flower pot at the end of Geraniums makes me think she intended the reader to feel more for this man's condition than Tanner's.
In terms of tone, Judgement Day (written in a time of greater social unrest than the late 40's), is by far the darker, more pessimistic for its violence/macabre, as well as the racial interaction it displays. There is no real violence in Geraniums other than the breaking of the pot and the neighbors threat at the end; in Judgement Day there is one act of near violence with a knife to Coleman and two acts of serious violence done to Tanner. The epiphanic moment of contact in both stories, when the old men encounter their black neighbors, is socially optimistic in Geraniums: a black man helps a white man up the stairs. Though Old Dudley still reacts in a racist manner, no violence occurs and it is a rather benign encounter for one party, at least. In Judgement Day, Tanner is aggressive in his confrontation with the neighbor and the neighbor is aggressive in his response. This seems appropriately cynical for a time of notorious racial violence and upheaval. In Judgement Day, it seems no one will ever get along.
Another interesting aspect of these stories is the portrayal of Northern racism. Yes, Old Dudley and Tanner hold disgusting and hurtful views on race, but so too do their daughters "up north." Both daughters, and their husbands, are just as hateful, perhaps more so in that they practice a strict social separation between themselves and others, though they live in the unsegregated North. I believe O'Connor is trying to point out that racism is not a solely southern problem; the North is just as racist, but hides that fact behind a facade of gentility. Once again, I found the earlier version more optimistic in this regard.
Anyways, I think she succeeds in that both of these stories have distinct differences in tone and, to a certain extent, characterization. I feel Old Dudley is a bit more sympathetic than Tanner: though both men seem to consider black people to be their "pets", Tanner's quasi mastership of Coleman is more grotesquely inhuman, as shown in the reference to Coleman being "curled up...at the foot of Tanner's bed, a stinking skin full of bones, arranged in what seemed vaguely human form." (p. 679) Though Tanner is a poor squatter himself, he still dominates his black companion through some influence that isn't really shown. Tanner's relationship with Coleman hinges on his expectation that all black people should/will show white people deference, because if they do not he or someone else may punish them with impunity. In fact, that is why the two men initially meet: Coleman is sleeping near Tanner's job site one day, and Tanner, who attempts to run Coleman off, seems ready to violently hurt Coleman if he finds it necessary. At no point during this does Tanner seem worried about any personal consequences to his maiming/killing Coleman, because at that time in that place a white person could rarely be brought to justice for harming an African American.
I found Old Dudley more human (which I guess just means likable) because he seemed less vitriolic and just generally softer: his fixation with geraniums, his make-believe gun on the stairs, and his weeping, which ends the story. O'Connor shows both Tanner and Old Dudley crying, revealing the depth of their fragility and desperation, but her lingering on Dudley's weeping and the broken flower pot at the end of Geraniums makes me think she intended the reader to feel more for this man's condition than Tanner's.
In terms of tone, Judgement Day (written in a time of greater social unrest than the late 40's), is by far the darker, more pessimistic for its violence/macabre, as well as the racial interaction it displays. There is no real violence in Geraniums other than the breaking of the pot and the neighbors threat at the end; in Judgement Day there is one act of near violence with a knife to Coleman and two acts of serious violence done to Tanner. The epiphanic moment of contact in both stories, when the old men encounter their black neighbors, is socially optimistic in Geraniums: a black man helps a white man up the stairs. Though Old Dudley still reacts in a racist manner, no violence occurs and it is a rather benign encounter for one party, at least. In Judgement Day, Tanner is aggressive in his confrontation with the neighbor and the neighbor is aggressive in his response. This seems appropriately cynical for a time of notorious racial violence and upheaval. In Judgement Day, it seems no one will ever get along.
Another interesting aspect of these stories is the portrayal of Northern racism. Yes, Old Dudley and Tanner hold disgusting and hurtful views on race, but so too do their daughters "up north." Both daughters, and their husbands, are just as hateful, perhaps more so in that they practice a strict social separation between themselves and others, though they live in the unsegregated North. I believe O'Connor is trying to point out that racism is not a solely southern problem; the North is just as racist, but hides that fact behind a facade of gentility. Once again, I found the earlier version more optimistic in this regard.
Wait... those were TWO different stories, right?
I honestly could not keep these stories straight. I kept thinking about geraniums in Judgment Day, because they mention him looking out a window a lot. I was just confused most of the time. Actually, the only thing that I could tell one story from the other was that the old man in Judgment Day wanted to make friends with city black people. Both daughters were against the idea though.
I also, like other people, was confused about time setting. Eventually I just gave in and let the story take me wherever and I stopped trying to figure it out. It was making me crazy! I was actually more confused about Geraniums because of the story with Rabie and hunting. It seemed to pop out of nowhere, and I was completely confused. Then I realized I didn't know where he was living, because I thought it was in the South. (Wait, I have the right story, right?) Both stories had similar structures, both jumping around and introducing their "black sidekicks" at the middle of the story in sort of a flashback way.
My biggest reaction to Judgment Day was complete sadness. I felt so incredibly bad for the main character because he was going to live out his days in a foreign place. I remember how I felt when I first moved out west and how scary it was (I came from a VERY small town in N. Carolina where it was miles to your next door neighbor). Even though he's in a busy place, he lives in isolation. I love window references in literature because they usually indicate some sort of romantic ideal - and he has one for the South.
I also, like other people, was confused about time setting. Eventually I just gave in and let the story take me wherever and I stopped trying to figure it out. It was making me crazy! I was actually more confused about Geraniums because of the story with Rabie and hunting. It seemed to pop out of nowhere, and I was completely confused. Then I realized I didn't know where he was living, because I thought it was in the South. (Wait, I have the right story, right?) Both stories had similar structures, both jumping around and introducing their "black sidekicks" at the middle of the story in sort of a flashback way.
My biggest reaction to Judgment Day was complete sadness. I felt so incredibly bad for the main character because he was going to live out his days in a foreign place. I remember how I felt when I first moved out west and how scary it was (I came from a VERY small town in N. Carolina where it was miles to your next door neighbor). Even though he's in a busy place, he lives in isolation. I love window references in literature because they usually indicate some sort of romantic ideal - and he has one for the South.
Confusion about the endings?
As ya'll have mentioned, the stories were indeed very similiar, and I found myself thinking along the same lines as Dana: Why are both stories necessary? In both, we get the sense of mourning the "death" of the "Old South" and the old ways of living, replaced by the city lifestyle. Of course the difference is in how the old Southerner interacts with the "city negro" in each. The geranium represents this for Old Dudley, as he looks at it and sees people and details from back home (pg. 707).
I had a bit of confusion concerning the endings. In "The Geranium," the neighbor tells Old Dudley that he only tells people once not to stare at him (pg. 713). This is something of an eerie way to end the story. Does a confrontation emerge? Is fear struck in Old Dudley? It just seems like a detail that O'Connor doesn't do anything with. Earlier in the story, the narrator lets us know that Old Dudley could only say things once to his daughter too, for she would not listen the second time (pg. 704). It's a nice structure, but what could she be doing with it? I think maybe O'Connor is getting at the fact that city life is so busy, people here won't give you the time of day to tell you a second time. Danger or violence would be in the place of a second warning, perhaps?
The end of "Judgement Day" was more enigmatic for me. The daughter finds Tanner dead, with his limbs hanging out of the banister, with the hat on his head (pg. 695). I am sure O'Connor is being purposefully vague, but do we think that the "negro actor" left him to die rather than getting him to a hospital? Did they watch him die and set him up purposefully in the disgraceful pose in the stairwell? I am guessing this is his "judgement," but what is he being judged for? And also, no mention of any legal action against the "negro actor" for the violence is given. He did not seem to have to pay any consequences for what he did. I was wondering if anyone else noticed this as well.
I had a bit of confusion concerning the endings. In "The Geranium," the neighbor tells Old Dudley that he only tells people once not to stare at him (pg. 713). This is something of an eerie way to end the story. Does a confrontation emerge? Is fear struck in Old Dudley? It just seems like a detail that O'Connor doesn't do anything with. Earlier in the story, the narrator lets us know that Old Dudley could only say things once to his daughter too, for she would not listen the second time (pg. 704). It's a nice structure, but what could she be doing with it? I think maybe O'Connor is getting at the fact that city life is so busy, people here won't give you the time of day to tell you a second time. Danger or violence would be in the place of a second warning, perhaps?
The end of "Judgement Day" was more enigmatic for me. The daughter finds Tanner dead, with his limbs hanging out of the banister, with the hat on his head (pg. 695). I am sure O'Connor is being purposefully vague, but do we think that the "negro actor" left him to die rather than getting him to a hospital? Did they watch him die and set him up purposefully in the disgraceful pose in the stairwell? I am guessing this is his "judgement," but what is he being judged for? And also, no mention of any legal action against the "negro actor" for the violence is given. He did not seem to have to pay any consequences for what he did. I was wondering if anyone else noticed this as well.
Wednesday, September 24, 2008
Pick One Already!
I was also extremely confused by "Judgment Day". I was having a lot of trouble telling the past from the present-- maybe this was a technique that was supposed to imitate an old person's trouble with separating memory and reality (or the beginning phases of Alzheimer’s).
I almost feel as though O'Conner thought the template of this story could lend itself well to both stories. However, I felt as though there might have been a creativity problem. There were undeniable similarities down to the detail of the daughters' husbands being gone multiple days of the week. I did feel slightly let down by the fact that I had to read two almost identical stories that dealt with similar themes. I wonder which story worked better or provoked more feelings in the reader. I think O’Conner could have chosen one of the stories. What do you guys think? I personally liked “The Geranium” better because I was less confused and I loved the reaction of the man in the window when he tells the father to mind his own business and that he would not ask twice—adding insult to injury after all that has happened to him. Also, I like that the beginning does not start from the father’s most desperate moment, which is the case in “Judgment Day”. The father in “The Geranium” does not cry until the end, and his crying is mixed with the conversation about the flower with the man across the alley, whereas the father in “Judgment Day” is crying from the outset and has also written a suicide note.
I almost feel as though O'Conner thought the template of this story could lend itself well to both stories. However, I felt as though there might have been a creativity problem. There were undeniable similarities down to the detail of the daughters' husbands being gone multiple days of the week. I did feel slightly let down by the fact that I had to read two almost identical stories that dealt with similar themes. I wonder which story worked better or provoked more feelings in the reader. I think O’Conner could have chosen one of the stories. What do you guys think? I personally liked “The Geranium” better because I was less confused and I loved the reaction of the man in the window when he tells the father to mind his own business and that he would not ask twice—adding insult to injury after all that has happened to him. Also, I like that the beginning does not start from the father’s most desperate moment, which is the case in “Judgment Day”. The father in “The Geranium” does not cry until the end, and his crying is mixed with the conversation about the flower with the man across the alley, whereas the father in “Judgment Day” is crying from the outset and has also written a suicide note.
Geranium and Judgment Day
While reading “The Geranium” and “Judgment Day,” I thought it was interesting that the two stories were so similar, both stories dealt with an older gentleman that had to move from the South to live with his daughter in a New York apartment. I thought this was interesting because it seemed that the fathers had to give up control and become a dependant on the very people that they had cared for, and the old men seemed to despise this situation as well as the daughters. The daughters not only seemed inconvinced by the situations that they are placed in but are at a complete lost in how to be around their fathers.
It was also odd that when the old men lived in the South they befriended “negros” and felt more comfortable with them than their own families which show how the times were changing while O’Conner wrote this story. The African American population was becoming independent of their stereotype. The difference between the old men within the two stories is in “Geranium”, Old Dudley cannot believe that the black man whom moves into the building is actually renting an apartment within the same building that his daughter lives in, and he is shocked that a black man is at the same economic status as his daughter. Also the difference between the black men within the stories is that the black man in “Geranium,” not only does not hurt Old Dudley but takes care of him and helps him to the door. It seems to me that the black men in the stories and the old men within the stories seem to flip flop positions on how they react to one another when first meeting, even though the old men still have odd stereotypes about the men moving into the apartment building.
I also thought in the “Judgment Day” that the way she lays out the story is very different from how O’Conner usually lays out the story. In O’Conner’s stories she gives you each thing in linear form, one thing after another but in “Judgment Day,” everything seems mixed up like it is coming in segments and he does not know what is happening I wonder if she sets it up like this because Tanner has a stroke.
It was also odd that when the old men lived in the South they befriended “negros” and felt more comfortable with them than their own families which show how the times were changing while O’Conner wrote this story. The African American population was becoming independent of their stereotype. The difference between the old men within the two stories is in “Geranium”, Old Dudley cannot believe that the black man whom moves into the building is actually renting an apartment within the same building that his daughter lives in, and he is shocked that a black man is at the same economic status as his daughter. Also the difference between the black men within the stories is that the black man in “Geranium,” not only does not hurt Old Dudley but takes care of him and helps him to the door. It seems to me that the black men in the stories and the old men within the stories seem to flip flop positions on how they react to one another when first meeting, even though the old men still have odd stereotypes about the men moving into the apartment building.
I also thought in the “Judgment Day” that the way she lays out the story is very different from how O’Conner usually lays out the story. In O’Conner’s stories she gives you each thing in linear form, one thing after another but in “Judgment Day,” everything seems mixed up like it is coming in segments and he does not know what is happening I wonder if she sets it up like this because Tanner has a stroke.
Malebranche and Hulga
Melebranche was a French philosopher who argued that “we see all things in God” and knowledge about the world is not possible except through a relationship between man and God. What we see in the physical world comes from our God. According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Melebranche’s thesis is in his section of Vision of God “we see external objects by means of ideas in God.” Our thoughts, therefore, would be God’s thoughts and what we see would be the sensation of God’s ideas. Knowing this about Melebranche, the dramatic point of Katharine Ann Porter’s “Good Country People” where Hulga screams at her mother to look introspectively and understand she is not God presents a huge statement about our roles as human beings and how we should think of each other. Mrs. Hopewell believes her interpretation of her daughter aligns with God. Women should smile and act beautiful, even if they are not beautiful. Mrs. Hopewell believed there “was nothing wrong with [her daughter’s] face that a pleasant expression wouldn’t help…people who looked on the bright side of things would be beautiful even if they were not” (267). Obviously, Mrs. Hopewell’s thoughts trod against God’s, for God sees every person as beautiful according to his own standards, rather than society’s standards. If Melebranche’s philosophy existed ideally, every person would see the people in this world as beautiful because God’s thoughts were supposed to infiltrate our own and determine how we interpret the external/physical world. Because our humanity prevents that kind of humility in our eyes, we must admit as humans that we are flawed and unable to see the world through holy lenses. Pride breaks us down as we simultaneously feel lifted up by own our own opinions and desires. Pride, the worst of the seven deadly sins, is Mrs. Hopewell’s flaw. Because she truly believes her own ideas about beauty and about femininity to be of God’s, she turned her own daughter away from her and most likely influenced Hulga’s rejection of her faith, of her name, and metaphorically of finding joy in the world.
Good Country People
In O'Connor's works as a whole thus far I am seeing her "false" labeling as more or less a love hate relationship with the South. Like with Helga, or the old woman in AGMIHTF, there is a disconnect between justification and virtue, and a misunderstanding between the characters identity and there actions.
Much like the boy who is a "Christian" or the fact that she doesn't "believe" in God, and yet O'Connor gives them different defining traits as such.
Much like the boy who is a "Christian" or the fact that she doesn't "believe" in God, and yet O'Connor gives them different defining traits as such.
"Good Country People" vs. "The Life You Save May Be Your Own"
Or rather, Tom T. Shiftlet versus Manley Pointer. These two characters both appear to women living without men, though the impressions of men remain. As Michelle pointed out, "The two women in this story were referred to as Mrs. the whole way through, even though we do not see their husbands in this story. Because they are referred to as Mrs. they become identified by their marriage and by their husbands instead of by their own identities and their first names." Further, Glynese has suitors, and Carramae, "only fifteen but already married and pregnant," has a husband and father somewhere, though just where is left to the reader's imagination (264). Compare this to "The Life You Save," where the two Lucynells live with the phantom of their husband/father in the spectre of the car. The elder Lucynell shares, "That car ain't run in fifteen year . . . The day my husband died, it quit running." (173)
As the only male characters in the story, a lot can be interpreted about Pointer and Shiftlet's roles in these women's lives. Shiftlet's repair of the car is a feat of manliness: "With a volley of blasts it emerged from the shed . . . Mr. Shiftlet was in the driver's seat, sitting very erect." (178) It's a moment of male potency, both in the field of autorepair (traditionally masculine) and Shiftlet's posture. His role as husband to Lucynell the younger after their marriage is thereby conflated with his role as father to her, and husband to Lucynell the elder, the repair of the car being rather Elektric.
Pointer's role to the Hopewells seems far less Greek. To Mrs. Hopewell, he is an annoyance. She says, "'[H]e bored me to death but he was so sincere and genuine I couldn't be rude to him.'" (274) But to the younger Hopewell, Hulga/Joy, he is some kind of romantic hope. So excited for their picnic, she "didn't take anything to eat," and spruces herself up by putting "some Vapex on the collar of [her shirt] since she did not own any perfume" (276-77). Pointer's role as a romantic interest to Hulga/Joy seems to be more than similar with the misguided pairing of Shiftlet and the Lucynells, each female party seeing in this new male an opportunity and being terribly mistaken.
Because Pointer's theft of Hulga/Joy's leg puzzles me, I'd like at this time to continue in an analysis of Shiftlet - specifically as a kind of perversion of the Christ figure. Lucynell the elder's insistence on Shiftlet's marriage to her daughter purports him to be, in her eyes, some kind of savior - and who could blame her for thinking so? He is, after all and in his own words, a carpenter (175), famously the vocation of Jesus. And, before even introducing himself, Shiftlet turns to face the sunset: "He swung both his whole and his short arm up slowly so that they indicated an expanse of sky and his figure formed a crooked cross." (173) Shiftlet is put on the cross before word one to Lucynell! That notion of the cross being crooked is a masterwork of foreshadowing, as Lucynell puts all her egg's in Shiftlet's basket only to have her salvation ruined beyond recognition. Shiftlet as the crooked Christ figure becomes complete when he perverts Luke 23:34. "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Compare this to Shiftlet's line at the end of the story, "'Oh Lord! . . . Break forth and wash the slime from this earth!'" (183) Shiftlet's prayer is antithetical to Jesus' plea, one requesting the forgiveness of sinners, and the other the purging of them. The irony, of course, lies in it beginning to rain on Shiftlet. Water is a cleansing force, and Shiftlet, perhaps realizing that the slime that needs washing may be himself, "race[s] the galloping shower into Mobile." (183)
Yet, Shiftlet as the crooked Christ figure does not necessitate Pointer as all that. Where one could draw a comparison between Jesus healing the sick and Pointer robbing the maimed, calling the Bible salesman any kind of Jesus is probably giving him too much credit. Certainly Hulga/Joy sees him as some kind of salvation, but not in a Christian sense. After all, she sees herself as already saved - "'We are all damned,' she said, 'but some of us have taken off our blindfolds and see that there's nothing to see. It's a kind of salvation.'" (280) Instead of pat Christian saving, Hulga/Joy sees Pointer as a kind of avenue to intimacy, to experiencing what about life is enjoyable before her prophesied premature death. In imagining her seduction of Pointer, she fantasizes "that she took his remorse in hand and changed it into a deeper understanding of life," (276) the irony here lying in Hulga/Joy's own virginity - "[s]he had never been kissed before and she was pleased to discover that it was an unexceptional experience" (278) - and so this foray into sexuality could lead to a deeper understanding of life for her.
It is too bad that Pointer is no full-blown Christ figure, because Hulga/Joy makes no secret of her atheism (278). (Neither does her mother, 270.) It could have lessened the ache of being forsaken in that hayloft, cut off and alone. But in my mind, still, Pointer and Shiftlet are two very like peas - both are strange men with ulterior motives who crash a girls-only party. What is O'Connor saying about men in a world of women? On one level she says that they can't be trusted, that they are deceptive and ultimately no good. Are these stories an advocation of nunnery - of cloistering yourself from that foul sex - or, in fact, the opposite? Of exposing yourself to men, and becoming the better for it? Of course we have no way of knowing if Hulga/Joy makes the best of this situation, if she learns from it. She can be awfully dense for a genius.
And, a tad off-topic, I think O'Connor's choice to have Mr. Paradise fail to save Bevel and, one page later, title a story "The Life You Save May Be Your Own" just excellent.
As the only male characters in the story, a lot can be interpreted about Pointer and Shiftlet's roles in these women's lives. Shiftlet's repair of the car is a feat of manliness: "With a volley of blasts it emerged from the shed . . . Mr. Shiftlet was in the driver's seat, sitting very erect." (178) It's a moment of male potency, both in the field of autorepair (traditionally masculine) and Shiftlet's posture. His role as husband to Lucynell the younger after their marriage is thereby conflated with his role as father to her, and husband to Lucynell the elder, the repair of the car being rather Elektric.
Pointer's role to the Hopewells seems far less Greek. To Mrs. Hopewell, he is an annoyance. She says, "'[H]e bored me to death but he was so sincere and genuine I couldn't be rude to him.'" (274) But to the younger Hopewell, Hulga/Joy, he is some kind of romantic hope. So excited for their picnic, she "didn't take anything to eat," and spruces herself up by putting "some Vapex on the collar of [her shirt] since she did not own any perfume" (276-77). Pointer's role as a romantic interest to Hulga/Joy seems to be more than similar with the misguided pairing of Shiftlet and the Lucynells, each female party seeing in this new male an opportunity and being terribly mistaken.
Because Pointer's theft of Hulga/Joy's leg puzzles me, I'd like at this time to continue in an analysis of Shiftlet - specifically as a kind of perversion of the Christ figure. Lucynell the elder's insistence on Shiftlet's marriage to her daughter purports him to be, in her eyes, some kind of savior - and who could blame her for thinking so? He is, after all and in his own words, a carpenter (175), famously the vocation of Jesus. And, before even introducing himself, Shiftlet turns to face the sunset: "He swung both his whole and his short arm up slowly so that they indicated an expanse of sky and his figure formed a crooked cross." (173) Shiftlet is put on the cross before word one to Lucynell! That notion of the cross being crooked is a masterwork of foreshadowing, as Lucynell puts all her egg's in Shiftlet's basket only to have her salvation ruined beyond recognition. Shiftlet as the crooked Christ figure becomes complete when he perverts Luke 23:34. "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Compare this to Shiftlet's line at the end of the story, "'Oh Lord! . . . Break forth and wash the slime from this earth!'" (183) Shiftlet's prayer is antithetical to Jesus' plea, one requesting the forgiveness of sinners, and the other the purging of them. The irony, of course, lies in it beginning to rain on Shiftlet. Water is a cleansing force, and Shiftlet, perhaps realizing that the slime that needs washing may be himself, "race[s] the galloping shower into Mobile." (183)
Yet, Shiftlet as the crooked Christ figure does not necessitate Pointer as all that. Where one could draw a comparison between Jesus healing the sick and Pointer robbing the maimed, calling the Bible salesman any kind of Jesus is probably giving him too much credit. Certainly Hulga/Joy sees him as some kind of salvation, but not in a Christian sense. After all, she sees herself as already saved - "'We are all damned,' she said, 'but some of us have taken off our blindfolds and see that there's nothing to see. It's a kind of salvation.'" (280) Instead of pat Christian saving, Hulga/Joy sees Pointer as a kind of avenue to intimacy, to experiencing what about life is enjoyable before her prophesied premature death. In imagining her seduction of Pointer, she fantasizes "that she took his remorse in hand and changed it into a deeper understanding of life," (276) the irony here lying in Hulga/Joy's own virginity - "[s]he had never been kissed before and she was pleased to discover that it was an unexceptional experience" (278) - and so this foray into sexuality could lead to a deeper understanding of life for her.
It is too bad that Pointer is no full-blown Christ figure, because Hulga/Joy makes no secret of her atheism (278). (Neither does her mother, 270.) It could have lessened the ache of being forsaken in that hayloft, cut off and alone. But in my mind, still, Pointer and Shiftlet are two very like peas - both are strange men with ulterior motives who crash a girls-only party. What is O'Connor saying about men in a world of women? On one level she says that they can't be trusted, that they are deceptive and ultimately no good. Are these stories an advocation of nunnery - of cloistering yourself from that foul sex - or, in fact, the opposite? Of exposing yourself to men, and becoming the better for it? Of course we have no way of knowing if Hulga/Joy makes the best of this situation, if she learns from it. She can be awfully dense for a genius.
And, a tad off-topic, I think O'Connor's choice to have Mr. Paradise fail to save Bevel and, one page later, title a story "The Life You Save May Be Your Own" just excellent.
Contempt in Good Country People
It seems to me that there exists between the character's of "Good Country People" a hierarchy of contempt by which they measure themselves and one another. Mrs. Hopewell has a kind of patronizing contempt for the Freemans because of their lower social class and the implied subordinant status of tenants. Mrs. Freeman has a quiet contempt for Hulga that expresses itself through her prodding use of her legal name, and is contemptuous of the bible sailsman's supposed "simplicity." Hulga is contemptous of the other three, openly and directly, for their perceived ignorance and the annoyance their interactions cause her. Finally, the bible salesman has contempt for Mr. Hopewell and Hulga because he knows he has tricked them and, in fact, seems to derive his contempt from the knowledge of theirs; his humiliation of Hulga is an act that turns her patronizing contempt around on her. The salesman makes Hulga stop thinking of him as a country bumpkin but instead as an equal and possible companion, which puts him in a position to dominate her and throw the contempt she held for him back upon her tenfold. Its an act of revenge with no real goal but to demonstrate his cleverness to those who think themselves intelligent.
Disillusionment and the Double Meaning of Good Country People
I found Flannery O’Connor’s Good Country People to be ironic. In this story, we have Joy-Hulga, the archetypical O’Connor character. However, unlike O’Connor’s other characters who share similar traits, Joy is an intellectual who is brought to her own demise through naivety and disillusionment.
Disillusionment in this story is very important and Manley Pointer, a simple country folk, is its main proponent. Manley says that he is selling Bibles and speaks often of Christianity. However, in the end he proves to be the story’s protagonist. Manley has succeeded in tricking “good country people” into believing that he is like them and moreover, that he is a Christian, simply by using the word. Thus, the role of the phrase “good country people” in this story takes on another connotation. Disillusionment also occurs with the character of Joy. Rather than being fooled by Manley, she brings herself to her own demise. By instantly assuming Manley to be what he says, a good Christian country folk, she instantly assumes her intellect is superior to any of his motives. By regarding her own mental capabilities too highly, Joy’s guard is let down and she is taken advantage of by Manley.
As a whole, Good Country People is about taking first impressions as face value and the disillusionment that ensues when no questions are asked of character.
Disillusionment in this story is very important and Manley Pointer, a simple country folk, is its main proponent. Manley says that he is selling Bibles and speaks often of Christianity. However, in the end he proves to be the story’s protagonist. Manley has succeeded in tricking “good country people” into believing that he is like them and moreover, that he is a Christian, simply by using the word. Thus, the role of the phrase “good country people” in this story takes on another connotation. Disillusionment also occurs with the character of Joy. Rather than being fooled by Manley, she brings herself to her own demise. By instantly assuming Manley to be what he says, a good Christian country folk, she instantly assumes her intellect is superior to any of his motives. By regarding her own mental capabilities too highly, Joy’s guard is let down and she is taken advantage of by Manley.
As a whole, Good Country People is about taking first impressions as face value and the disillusionment that ensues when no questions are asked of character.
Good Country People
While I was reading this, I kept wondering who the reader was supposed to sympathize with and what we were supposed to take away from this story. O'Connor seemed to be making a statement with this story, but I am just not sure what the statement was. At first, it seems like O'Connor is making a statement about how mothers think that the only way their daughters can be valuable in society is if they are married (like Carramae) or desired (like Glynese), instead of educated like Joy. The two women get duped by the Bible salesman. What is this saying? It could be taken as some sort of comment on religion. Then Joy gets duped by the salesman. What is this saying? That she is book smart but not exactly street smart?
I also thought the names in this story were interesting, and I think the names play into what the statement of the story is. The two women in this story were referred to as Mrs. the whole way through, even though we do not see their husbands in this story. Because they are referred to as Mrs. they become identified by their marriage and by their husbands instead of by their own identities and their first names. Their names were also interesting choices: Freeman and Hopewell. Both of these names indicate their personalities. I also thought this was an interesting sentence too, "One of her [Joy's] major triumphs was that her mother had not been able to turn her dust into Joy" (267).
I also thought the names in this story were interesting, and I think the names play into what the statement of the story is. The two women in this story were referred to as Mrs. the whole way through, even though we do not see their husbands in this story. Because they are referred to as Mrs. they become identified by their marriage and by their husbands instead of by their own identities and their first names. Their names were also interesting choices: Freeman and Hopewell. Both of these names indicate their personalities. I also thought this was an interesting sentence too, "One of her [Joy's] major triumphs was that her mother had not been able to turn her dust into Joy" (267).
Tuesday, September 23, 2008
I honestly do not know how to respond to this story. I am so appalled by "Pointer". I guess I should have expected a twist to the story, but this ending was just too much. I agree with the previous post in that my attention was drawn to the names, however, I am more involved in the idea of blindness and ignorance. Mrs. Hopewell seems as though she can read every person that walks into her life. She explains that she likes good country people, and despises white trash. It seems that she is so confident in understanding other people, explaining that she has no faults, and she finds faults in everyone else. However, she is completely blind to the evil side of the boy she invites to dinner. As her daughter is left alone, helpless, she looks after the boy, wishing everyone could be "good country people," more like him. I found the story to be extremely upsetting, and I was not expecting such a turn.
An "intellectual's" POV
This is kind of the first story where we get most of the story through the college educated character. I was convinced that this would be entirely through Mrs. Hopewell, but it does this very subtle shift to Hulga's story. I actually thought that Mrs. Freeman was going to be a major character, rather than a side character, and act kind of like Mrs. Shortley in The DP. This was brought up in the last class (I think Dana) that many of the evil characters in O'Connor's stories are overweight women. And the college educated, big girl was crazy. Hulga still fits the role of the bitter, rude intellectual that is going no where in life, but she still seems down to Earth a bit more (maybe because we see her side more?). Her wooden leg adds extra sympathy to her character, but makes her bitter and has frozen her in time to be a little girl.
The scene in the barn with Pointer had me very tense the entire time. I honestly thought he was going to rape her. Mainly because he pulled out the box that said "only to be used in prevention of disease" (i.e., condoms). When he finally took her leg, I actually let out a nervous laugh. Who would do something like that? Where is his pleasure in stealing women's artificial body parts? Obviously, it's some form of control, as is highlighted by the condoms and rape insinuation. But it's weird. The dynamic between religion and the characters in this story is much different from the others. He pushes his way into their home by making them at ease by being a good Christian, yet he ACTUALLY wins over the only Atheist in the house! Is it because he is simple? Hulga couldn't have really believed in him when he said he liked to have "serious thoughts." College graduates don't talk like that, from any time period. So what was his charm? Maybe she was happy that someone was attracted to her despite all her physical problems. Maybe it was their common condition. Maybe she thought she could manipulate him. That's how I saw it anyway. She really wanted to manipulate him into putting down the Bible and pick up another book but instead she got a lesson of her own. Even though she had all this higher learning, it still didn't erase all the stereotypes she had in her mind. She really wasn't any better or smarter than the country folk.
The scene in the barn with Pointer had me very tense the entire time. I honestly thought he was going to rape her. Mainly because he pulled out the box that said "only to be used in prevention of disease" (i.e., condoms). When he finally took her leg, I actually let out a nervous laugh. Who would do something like that? Where is his pleasure in stealing women's artificial body parts? Obviously, it's some form of control, as is highlighted by the condoms and rape insinuation. But it's weird. The dynamic between religion and the characters in this story is much different from the others. He pushes his way into their home by making them at ease by being a good Christian, yet he ACTUALLY wins over the only Atheist in the house! Is it because he is simple? Hulga couldn't have really believed in him when he said he liked to have "serious thoughts." College graduates don't talk like that, from any time period. So what was his charm? Maybe she was happy that someone was attracted to her despite all her physical problems. Maybe it was their common condition. Maybe she thought she could manipulate him. That's how I saw it anyway. She really wanted to manipulate him into putting down the Bible and pick up another book but instead she got a lesson of her own. Even though she had all this higher learning, it still didn't erase all the stereotypes she had in her mind. She really wasn't any better or smarter than the country folk.
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